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Blackcyclops
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Topic: Who is the Quintessential X-Man Artist? Posted: 30-Jan-2011 at 8:09pm |
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The X-Men have had a variety of "good" and "bad" artist on their book...who do you think is THE X-Men artist? Does it vary for the titles (Uncanny, X-Force, X-Factor, Generation X, New Mutants, etc)?
I think for Uncanny X-Men it's two artist its Lee for what he did in the 90s, it set up the X-Men look essentially for a majority of younger readers/fans.
The other one would have to be John Byrne. The looks he placed on the X-Men still resonate with me.
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"And someone's mom wants to eat all their souls. As a mom, I was offended. Moms should get to be role models, too."-Savant
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grief
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Posted: 30-Jan-2011 at 8:42pm |
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Mad props have to be given to Dave Cockrum. I don't own any of the issues he drew, but his designs for Thunderbird, Sunfire, Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Banshee have lasted for YEARS. Warpath's old X-Force costume was highly inspired by TBird's, while most of the rest's "modern" looks are highly inspired by Cockrum's work. And personally, I haven't seen a redesign of Nightcrawler that I liked BETTER than the original.
Personally though, I do think it varies per book. For example, no one draws the GenX kids better than Bachalo did back in the day - and I still think he's the only one who does Chamber justice. I can definately agree with Jim Lee for X-Men though. I know most fanart I see of the X-characters is them in their 90's outfits simply because it sits in our minds so well - the fact that X-Men: TAS also used them only helps strengthen the memorability.
While I'm not a particularly large fan, I also tend to think of Alan Davis for the X-line in general. He has such a classic, organic look.
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Winner of Best 617 Hero for 2007 - Magneto (Magneto Cado Rex)
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Blackcyclops
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Posted: 30-Jan-2011 at 9:15pm |
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Yeah it's really hard for me to judge between Cockrum and Byrne. Both of their designs and looks are legendary and really to me set the standard for the X-Men designs.
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"And someone's mom wants to eat all their souls. As a mom, I was offended. Moms should get to be role models, too."-Savant
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JanO
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 7:46am |
Cockrum is definately one of the most important artists the X-Men ever had. His designs are just so amazing they'll nbever be topped.
And allthough he only drew 10 issues and a mini, the LOOK of the X-Men I always imagine in my head is that given them by Paul Smith. He re-designed Storm, gave us Maddy Pryor, The Morlocks, Lockheed. The feel he introduced was beuatyfully continued by JRJR, and apart from being my favorite period of stories (165-175), I think it also defines how the X-Men should look.
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Spectral Knight
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 11:11am |
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Cockrum, and Lee for me.
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JanO
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 12:13pm |
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No matter how much I love Byrne's X-Men art, he'll always be Mister Fantastic Four to me. Why Lee, by the way? I'm not a fan, so I'm probably biased and don't see his contibution.
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"Professor Xavier is a Jerk!" - Kitty
"I'm Dark! I'm Goth as Hell!" - Pixie
"Kurt who?" - Hope
"MONOLITH WAS RIGHT!!!!"
"Meet the New Boss, Same as the old Boss" - Pete Townsend
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Spectral Knight
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 12:21pm |
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Character designs with longevity (Gambit still wears the pink to this day!), and the fact that when the X-Men really became massive it was under his pencil strokes. I still love the dynamism he brought to the books too.
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Blackcyclops
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 2:59pm |
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Lee was in his prime then. And if you look at his pre X-Men #1 stuff he hadn't yet made it to the super-uber sexy stuff he would later do. He just drew pretty comics.
His costume for Rogue, Cyclops, Psylocke, Jean, Storm, Bishop, and Jubilee (I think he did hers) are all iconic till this day.
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"And someone's mom wants to eat all their souls. As a mom, I was offended. Moms should get to be role models, too."-Savant
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JanO
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 3:15pm |
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What a difference a decade makes: I still tend to think of Lee's stuff (completely biased) as unrequired updates on iconic cosatumes, and revere the original/80's looks. This is probably one of those "when did you start reading?" things again.....
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"Professor Xavier is a Jerk!" - Kitty
"I'm Dark! I'm Goth as Hell!" - Pixie
"Kurt who?" - Hope
"MONOLITH WAS RIGHT!!!!"
"Meet the New Boss, Same as the old Boss" - Pete Townsend
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Spectral Knight
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 3:24pm |
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Another thing that marks Lee's costumes as iconic is their use in the animated series and many of the games of that period, which kept those costumes in the public mindset even when they'd been updated in the books.
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Blackcyclops
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 3:47pm |
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Well plus Lee's costumes for many of them stayed for a relatively long time.
Cyclops-well to be fair he wore his same costume from the original run for years...he didn't wear too many costumes.
Gambit- wore his Lee stuff for majority of the time he was around.
Psylocke- Still wears it...
Jubilee- pretty much wore it until she joined Gen. X
Jean- sadly she didn't have that many costumes,her Marvel Girl costume was her longest running one then the Phoenix (but its not her?) Costume. But her Lee costume was hers until what the Revolution stuff?.
Storm-well she changed costumes a lot...so her Lee costume didn't last that long. But it was definitely one of her only costumes to be anything different then the primarily black piece she wore (I'm a fan of her black costume with the lightning bolt down the chest).
Rogue- she's worn that costume longer then any other but it was definitely a product of its era.
I can't think now of any others he redesigned...
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"And someone's mom wants to eat all their souls. As a mom, I was offended. Moms should get to be role models, too."-Savant
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Spectral Knight
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Posted: 31-Jan-2011 at 4:06pm |
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Nope, Jean had ditched the Lee look for the Pheonix costume (when they went for a sabatical in Alaska).
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spacerstarchaser
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Posted: 09-Feb-2011 at 5:18pm |
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Lee was on the book when the x-men reached their commercial pick while Byrne drew the best stories this comic has ever seen my vote goes to Byrne cause he was a co-plotter too.his contribution is much greater than any other artist
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Cable
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Posted: 10-Feb-2011 at 8:30am |
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Notice who isn't mentioned: Jack Kirby. It is odd that X-Men is arguably Lee and Kirby's most commercially successful legacy but neither of them really made it iconic like they did all their other superhero work.
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QDLux29
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Posted: 10-Feb-2011 at 7:13pm |
Originally posted by spacerstarchaser
Lee was on the book when the x-men reached their commercial pick while Byrne drew the best stories this comic has ever seenmy vote goes to Byrne cause he was a co-plotter too.his contribution is much greater than any other artist |
Jim Lee was also a co-writer starting with X-Men (vol 2) #1.
I'm throwing my hat in the Byrne & Lee camps. Both, in my opinion, are what come to mind when I picture the X-Men in my head.
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Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 3:14am |
Lee is not only the quintessential X-men artist, he's the quintessential modern comic artist. I would argue that comic art was generally the same style in the 80s until Lee brought a radical attention to form and beauty. Sort of like how Rennaisance painters brought it back into style, except in comics, Lee did it for the first time.
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Blackcyclops
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Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 3:15am |
Originally posted by ajandrew1212
Lee is not only the quintessential X-men artist, he's the quintessential modern comic artist. I would argue that comic art was generally the same style in the 80s until Lee brought a radical attention to form and beauty. Sort of like how Rennaisance painters brought it back into style, except in comics, Lee did it for the first time. |
Wow, thats a big statement...Normally when you make those I have something to say...but I'm torn...I gotta really think on that...
Anybody else care to comment? Gotta admit, ajandrew made a very thought-provoking response...
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"And someone's mom wants to eat all their souls. As a mom, I was offended. Moms should get to be role models, too."-Savant
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Binaryan
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Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 6:06pm |
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Interesting perspective, ajandrew.... and I'm not entirely sure I can refute that. He certainly emerged from a period with several notable styles and rising stars (Portacio, McFarlane, Liefeld and Jim Lee) as the most enduring and influential of the bunch. That in itself is a major achievement. But if you want to talk about bringing a "radical attention to form and beauty", I think you have to take a step back a little and look at who paved the way for artists like Jim Lee. I would argue that the likes of George Perez and a bit later, Art Adams had a lot to do with a broader appreciation for more detailed and dynamic artwork. Adams in particular seemed wildly influential following his 80s heyday as seen in artists like Jim Lee and Joe Madureira, even Joe Quesada.
In fact, the early 80s were pretty rich with some strong signature styles ranging from the extremely stylized Sienkiewicz to the simplified but iconic Mike Mignola to Paul Smith's clean lines.... all alongside the likes of Art Adams who was pushing detail and beauty. This level of variety broke the mold of the "traditional" comic art style set by the likes of Romita, Cockrum, Byrne, Perez and paved the way for a greater variety of approaches and styles.
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Cyke
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Posted: 19-Feb-2011 at 5:55pm |
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Some have mentioned co-plotting status as a consideration. If so, Lee held that status for awhile so for me, that would cement Lee/Byrne as the most influential since they not only affected the look of the characters, but the characters themselves.
Cockrum is iffy to me. Consistency is also important to me. His second run on Uncanny looks more consistent than his initial run to me.
Paul Smith is right behind Byrne/Lee.
Although his volume of work on X-titles is small, his impact on those titles was huge, so I would also mention Bob McLeod in this list. I simply cannot think of Sam and Co. without thinking of McLeod.
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"Cyclops is a born leader, as good as I expected. He found one opening, one flaw in our defenses, and in a matter of seconds he had us on the ropes. I like that" - Sebastian Shaw, Uncanny #134
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Sabin
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Posted: 27-Feb-2011 at 11:59pm |
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I'm of two minds. I wouldn't put Jim Lee in my top five or ten. Even though he's an incredibly talented artist, he essentially created sleek edges around stories I don't consider canon-worthy. But he had the most important impact on the look of the X-Men. Because of Jim Lee, we have the animated series, which is largely responsible for a new burgeoning and rabid collective of X-Men fans who will forever associate the X-Men with what he created.
I think you can make an argument for why it's Jim Lee, but certainly not for me...and if you sat down these fans of Jim Lee's art and fed them issues where he was prominently featured with Claremont's stories, I doubt they'd be incredibly happy.
On the other hand, Paul Smith was the artist X-Men became the phenomenon that it was. He's just as responsible for manning the ship during success as anyone and his stories hold up as good as anyone's.
...and yet even as I type that, I was to say "except for John Byrne." Cockrum deserves a lion's share amount of credit for developing what the new/better X-Men would look like. But I've never felt that his art holds up as well it should. Compared with how intrinsically dramatic each of Byrne's panels are, I'm inclined to say that he and Claremont are the X-Men. When I think of the X-Men, I think of Byrne's jaws, Byrne's eyes, Byrne's musculature.
Compare Nightcrawler before and after Byrne. Before Byrne, he is a walking, surly demon. Afterwards, he is more human in his otherworldliness. Compare Colossus before and after Byrne. Byrne drew Peter Rasputin as a younger man. Before Byrne, he appeared simply as a strongman. Certainly Byrne deserves credit for fleshing out her character, but before Byrne, Storm was a distant exotic creation, and afterwards she seemed less (how shall I put this without offending?) native. She appeared stronger while maintaining her history. Look how ridiculous Banshee looks under Cockrum's pen! He still had his Silver Age hair. Byrne made him into a gentleman approaching middle-age. Look at his Beast! Look at his Professor Xavier! These are largely who they remain today.
I would also argue that before John Byrne, no artist had successfully made Jean Grey into a singularly attractive woman. She simply seemed The. Girl. The pleasing curves of John Byrne's jaws and his eyes is the Jean Grey we all know and the one that Cyclops loves, which is one of the most important, enduring linchpins of the saga. Jim Lee's Jean Grey always seemed a bit demure to me, and he is responsible for one of the most impractically illogical costumes ever, one that defied branding with a name.
I say John Byrne.
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Sabin
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Posted: 28-Feb-2011 at 12:08am |
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...to follow up on other books:
I'm going to pick Bob McLeod over Bill Sienkiewicz for New Mutants. I think the latter is more influential in terms of storytelling and artistry, but McLeod dictated who they were in terms of visual personality more than anyone else can really claim.
Alan Davis for Excalibur. Nobody else really comes close, although I really liked Ken Lashley when I first began reading the book.
X-Factor has had so many different runs so I must divide it into three...that's Simonson of course for the first, Stroman for the second, and Pablo Raimondi for the third.
Generation X is early Chris Bachalo. Only early.
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kanderson
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Posted: 11-Mar-2011 at 4:46am |
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Jim lee, Chris B, and the brothers of Kubert
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The Bub
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Posted: 15-Mar-2011 at 2:20am |
As for the side discussion of Jim Lee being Mr. Modern...no one has had a greater influence on comic art in the last 20 years than Michael Golden. His output isn't particulalry large, but the sheer amount of important artists (including Art Adams, Jim Lee, Joe Mad, etc) that were recognizably influenced by him is staggering. Guys like Byrne are better remembered, but other than Vic Bridges and Dale Keown I can't think of too many guys who really picked up anything Byrne was doing--they were more likely to just go to Byrne's influences like Kirby and Adams, or someone more experimental than Byrne, like Miller.
Right now I think Byrne is still Mr. X-Men, but I think a lot of that has to do with comics culture reinforcement at the hands of people like Wizard and CBR. I'm not saying he isn't good or that his work isn't a hallmark of the series, but I'm guessing most of us here have had "Dark Phoenix Saga Is God" hammered into our heads long before we were actually able to track down a reprint of it and decide for ourselves.
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Wolverguy
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Posted: 19-Jul-2011 at 1:34am |
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Lee. Kubert.
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unused_bagels
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Posted: 22-Jul-2011 at 3:22pm |
LEE. JIM #$@%@! LEE
Also, I have to admit I really miss Jack Kirby, but he isn't quintissential so much as classic. I love his strong use of black and contrast, along with simplified characters who were easy to see, but also etailed when the panel called for it.
Edited by unused_bagels - 22-Jul-2011 at 3:27pm
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Did somebody say cream cheese?
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